Thanks for diving into this. looking forward to reading more. I did, though, felt moved to respond to your assertion that the books lacks a thesis. My takeaway from the book is different than yours...i.e. that their central thesis is that the western ideology of a teleological progression of civilization (from hunter gatherer, to agriculture, to hierarchical systems of domination etc.) is just a myth to justify the 'inevitability' of our current social structures (of hierarchy & domination), and that history (and ever newly discovered archaeological data) is showing that societies throughout our history have 'evolved' or developed counter to that progression. I think it was the Natchez sun king where the rest of society just said 'peace out, dude! you're on your own now.' and went back to hunter-gathering, or the tribe in the amazon which had seasonal variations (where they lived in the 'bush' much of the year, then then returned to centralized villages with a hierarchical structure during a particular season [dry season?]). And that cities didn't necessarily require an agricultural economy (e.g. the cities in ice-age ukraine that were built on mammoth bones). I was really surprised by the multiple accounts of indigenous societies on the american continent which had elaborate aristocracies, and held a quarter (up to a third) of the population as slaves...while having a hunter/gatherer economy (i think the Tlinglit stood out, w/ their salmon based economy).
It felt to me that they were making a compelling argument for why this belief that 'it's too late for us techno-slaves to live free' is just yet another deep-rooted layer of propaganda. That our species have left physical evidence (from the ice ages/stone ages) and cultural historical examples of elaborate social systems for cultural cross-polination, for limiting authority, for sharing power (e.g. the Osages elaborate 'seating' arrangements, the basque village system for taking turns with authority positions, and the evidence of super-long-range travel by individuals in the mesolithic age). Anyway, so glad to see you taking this on. I LOVED this book (i've probably read it about 2 1/2 times by now. i keep dipping into it.)
I don't find it so hard to believe that European thought was impacted by Indigenous thinking and culture, since I do know how much the "founders" of the USA were impacted by indigenous ideas and practices of democracy and equality (I did not know that there were native intellectuals who visited Europe and wrote and spoke there). What gob-smacked me, though, was this: "the conventional account of human history as a saga of material progress was developed in reaction to the Indigenous critique in order to salvage the honor of the West." (quoted from a writer in The Atlantic--who was that?). It just stuns me that the predator class, the nefarious beings who think they are better than the rest of humanity, are always able to find a way to stay on top and change the understanding of history, even rewrite it and reset it wholesale, to keep humanity from knowing the truth. I think, though, that their ability to do this is coming to an end.
Yes, and not only did they diminish the contributions of Native Amercians to prop up the European superiority complex, but those contributions ("freedom", "equality") were appropiated by the private predator class to foment the revolutions that overthrew the old order only to establish a new (a "new world order") where these same concepts would be used to justify state domination, all the while robbing them of the meaning they had in their original context of natural indigenous society and human autonomy based on a subsistence relation to the land, a relation allowing for true freedom in a very practical way and celebrated in sacred lore and myth.
This is beautiful and very educational. Thank you for taking the time to put this together brother.
"My allegiance to not to the country where I was born, nor to the religion that I was raised in. My loyalty is the Supreme Being that we are all apart of, to the planetary super-organism we call Mother Earth, and to the cosmic super-organism of the universe, the vast swirling expanse that will forever remain mysterious."
So refreshing to read words that get to the heart of matter. Billions of words analyzing but never really looking beneath the surface. So just so much blah...blah....blah.
Indigenous thinking did have a profound influence on Western thought, but only because it was already familiar to the Europeans, IMHO. Ideas of democracy, or of having no need of a king or a state, are at least as old as the Celtic and Germanic speaking peoples at the time of the Roman Empire, and that never entirely went away.
They're undoubtedly far older than that, but they were the first two examples to spring to mind.
The axioms of the hive mind given to the world by the "CRIMINOCRACY" (tip of the hat to Cudenec) need to be dashed upon the rocks at every opportunity ... smash those mind chains to smithereens ... while we're still able.
Thanks for diving into this. looking forward to reading more. I did, though, felt moved to respond to your assertion that the books lacks a thesis. My takeaway from the book is different than yours...i.e. that their central thesis is that the western ideology of a teleological progression of civilization (from hunter gatherer, to agriculture, to hierarchical systems of domination etc.) is just a myth to justify the 'inevitability' of our current social structures (of hierarchy & domination), and that history (and ever newly discovered archaeological data) is showing that societies throughout our history have 'evolved' or developed counter to that progression. I think it was the Natchez sun king where the rest of society just said 'peace out, dude! you're on your own now.' and went back to hunter-gathering, or the tribe in the amazon which had seasonal variations (where they lived in the 'bush' much of the year, then then returned to centralized villages with a hierarchical structure during a particular season [dry season?]). And that cities didn't necessarily require an agricultural economy (e.g. the cities in ice-age ukraine that were built on mammoth bones). I was really surprised by the multiple accounts of indigenous societies on the american continent which had elaborate aristocracies, and held a quarter (up to a third) of the population as slaves...while having a hunter/gatherer economy (i think the Tlinglit stood out, w/ their salmon based economy).
It felt to me that they were making a compelling argument for why this belief that 'it's too late for us techno-slaves to live free' is just yet another deep-rooted layer of propaganda. That our species have left physical evidence (from the ice ages/stone ages) and cultural historical examples of elaborate social systems for cultural cross-polination, for limiting authority, for sharing power (e.g. the Osages elaborate 'seating' arrangements, the basque village system for taking turns with authority positions, and the evidence of super-long-range travel by individuals in the mesolithic age). Anyway, so glad to see you taking this on. I LOVED this book (i've probably read it about 2 1/2 times by now. i keep dipping into it.)
I don't find it so hard to believe that European thought was impacted by Indigenous thinking and culture, since I do know how much the "founders" of the USA were impacted by indigenous ideas and practices of democracy and equality (I did not know that there were native intellectuals who visited Europe and wrote and spoke there). What gob-smacked me, though, was this: "the conventional account of human history as a saga of material progress was developed in reaction to the Indigenous critique in order to salvage the honor of the West." (quoted from a writer in The Atlantic--who was that?). It just stuns me that the predator class, the nefarious beings who think they are better than the rest of humanity, are always able to find a way to stay on top and change the understanding of history, even rewrite it and reset it wholesale, to keep humanity from knowing the truth. I think, though, that their ability to do this is coming to an end.
Yes, and not only did they diminish the contributions of Native Amercians to prop up the European superiority complex, but those contributions ("freedom", "equality") were appropiated by the private predator class to foment the revolutions that overthrew the old order only to establish a new (a "new world order") where these same concepts would be used to justify state domination, all the while robbing them of the meaning they had in their original context of natural indigenous society and human autonomy based on a subsistence relation to the land, a relation allowing for true freedom in a very practical way and celebrated in sacred lore and myth.
You said it!
Damn, I think you've got an essay there, Tobin!
Not only subsistent but sustained management for thousands of years.
This is beautiful and very educational. Thank you for taking the time to put this together brother.
"My allegiance to not to the country where I was born, nor to the religion that I was raised in. My loyalty is the Supreme Being that we are all apart of, to the planetary super-organism we call Mother Earth, and to the cosmic super-organism of the universe, the vast swirling expanse that will forever remain mysterious."
Amen!
So refreshing to read words that get to the heart of matter. Billions of words analyzing but never really looking beneath the surface. So just so much blah...blah....blah.
Indigenous thinking did have a profound influence on Western thought, but only because it was already familiar to the Europeans, IMHO. Ideas of democracy, or of having no need of a king or a state, are at least as old as the Celtic and Germanic speaking peoples at the time of the Roman Empire, and that never entirely went away.
They're undoubtedly far older than that, but they were the first two examples to spring to mind.
Great job Crow!
The axioms of the hive mind given to the world by the "CRIMINOCRACY" (tip of the hat to Cudenec) need to be dashed upon the rocks at every opportunity ... smash those mind chains to smithereens ... while we're still able.
Fascinating! Thank you 🙏🏽